Crafting History: Wayne Gustafson's Architectural Journey after WWII - Legends Series

Speaker 1: 0:24

Welcome to Fred Fords Perspective, a podcast dedicated to the stories of this place And the people in it. In this episode, we will talk to Wayne Gustafson, a Montana native, who served as an architect in our Billings community with his firm Drake and Gustafson throughout his career. Wayne's projects can be seen across our state, with notable Billings projects being Billings West High, the Billings Gazette Security, federal Savings and the MSUB Student Union Building. Wayne also served in the Navy at the end of World War II and listings the 17-year-old. He was assigned to the Southern Pacific Fleet and this is where our story will begin. We hope you enjoy. You are a young man in the Navy, in the Pacific Fleet, is that correct? That's right. Yeah, tell me about the. How old were you when you went in?

Speaker 2: 1:09

Well, I volunteered for the Navy when I was 17. World War II was in full, you know full activity, and so I had the option of waiting till I was drafted by the Army, because every young man was scheduled to be drafted. but I didn't want to serve in the Army. so I made the decision to join the Navy, and I remember it was April 10, 1945, when I made the trip to Helena, got sworn into the Navy and was sent orders for active duty within about three weeks. So I was called into the Navy in June, may or June of 1945.

Speaker 1: 1:55

So you were sworn in three weeks later.

Speaker 2: 1:58

No, i was sworn in and then called active duty, called active duty.

Speaker 1: 2:02

Okay, so you went to, i guess, boot camp in.

Speaker 2: 2:06

Yeah, we had the Naval Training Station boot camp in San Diego. Yeah, in San Diego, there, that's where I was sent to go to training For a Montana boy.

Speaker 1: 2:16

they didn't have to be all bad. some sun, some beach. I think this is a war thing, can't be that bad. Pretty good place for training. How long was Naval Training during the war? It was 10 weeks.

Speaker 2: 2:28

And I arrived down there around the first of June. I spent June, july and most of August in training. It was then we had a 10-day leave about the 20th of August, so I got to come home with my see my folks over Labor Day and reported back to San Diego after the 10-day leave. At that point I received orders to be sent over to the Philippines. The Philippines was sort of a staging area for the invasion of Japan. But it so happened that when I was in training during August is when the atomic bomb dropped on Japan, so the war came to an immediate end. But we were still scheduled to be sent overseas. So I was sent to Pearl Harbor and then to Philippines at a Navy base called Cavite in the Manila Bay area, and from there I was assigned to my ship, which I was to be on board for a couple more years. And the ship I was assigned to was called an LST.

Speaker 2: 3:36

They're landing ship tanks and people who watch the World War II movies recognize those as the ones that go up on the beach And they have great big bow doors. They're big ships. They're 300 feet long. They carry several hundred recruits or members of the military. They had a permanent crew of around 60 or 70 that ran the ship, but they could take as many as a couple hundred military, and when they'd go up on the beach then they would open the bow doors, and that's how the invasions were conducted during that time.

Speaker 1: 4:18

Yeah, that's the part in the movie where you see everybody get shot and all of that stuff. Now you didn't see any of that type of action because the war was over when you went in.

Speaker 2: 4:28

Yeah, fortunately the war ended in August when I was in the Navy training station.

Speaker 1: 4:35

What was the feeling as a young man, with everyone there? Was there relief? Did you feel like you were missing the big game? You know there's all sorts of thoughts that I have about that.

Speaker 2: 4:47

Oh no, i can tell you that everybody was so relieved the war We'd been in the war three and a half years There was a lot of atrocities, terrible experiences, losses at sea, besides land warfare. When the war was over you can't believe the relief that everybody felt, and particularly those of us who were stateside. We were getting ready to be sent overseas And you know the three and a half years of fighting the Japanese was foot by foot, island by island, and nobody expected anything but the hardest warfare. When the atomic bomb was dropped, they dropped two of them, as you know. The first one was sort of surprised everybody including the Japanese, and they thought maybe it was just a one-time yeah, one-time explosion. And the Japanese didn't surrender. So the week later Air Force sent another atom bomb, bombed another city, hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the Japanese believed we did have other bombs and it was time to give up. So after those two bombs went off, the war was ended fairly, almost immediately.

Speaker 1: 6:03

We'll just skip over the tragedy of having to do that to end the war and the number of people that died, And of course there's tons of argument of how many people would have died if we would have continued.

Speaker 2: 6:17

And that's all left to history now.

Speaker 1: 6:19

But we did know the Japanese were fanatics and they would defend every foot of land they had to give up And history certainly has shown us that literally the citizenry was really convinced to defend to a person everyone on the island. I recently heard an account of a Japanese man that they finally pulled out of the Philippines in the early 70s. They had to have his officer. I believe the story is his officer was a tailor or something. Now They had to put him in a uniform, get him there and pull him out And he said he didn't believe the war was over because there were Japanese still alive.

Speaker 1: 7:08

Yeah, he was hiding, hiding out, Yeah yeah, i've heard stories like that too, so with that in mind as you went into Japan. How did they accept this?

Speaker 2: 7:19

What was Well? that was the interesting thing. They were absolutely what should I say? humble That's not the word I'm looking for Where they knew they had lost the war, they knew they had given up, and so they were almost bowing to us, very polite, yeah, showing that they accepted the defeat. So our ship was one of the first to land marines on the island or in Japan, at a port called Sendai, north of Tokyo, about 200 miles. We were the first ships in there to carry marines to occupy And I remember that, getting off the ship, we would see some of the Japanese that lived there in the villages And we would walk around the area where we had our ship on the dock And they would bow to us just like we were conquerors which we were But they showed no sign of resistance of any kind.

Speaker 1: 8:29

Once the emperor said it's over. It was over. Yeah, that's right. How did the hardened marines that were there, that had seen some war and seen some pretty terrible things, did they try to keep them out of there and keep the peace?

Speaker 2: 8:44

No, I don't think so. I remember walking down one of the lanes or streets in Sendai, which was north of Tokyo, And first of all the Japanese were very subdued And most of the marines and those of us who occupied respected the people. But there were a few hard-nosed guys. I remember one guy walking into what was then a very little sidewalk shop Because they knew they had been conquered. But the Japanese who lived in the town that we were first in, they brought out some little souvenir's that they'd hope to sell to the marines or to us. They would have a little, oh little. you've seen those little charcoal burgers, you know. Yeah, They would sit around nose, That's how they got heat. They were sitting on the walk or on the street And they would.

Speaker 2: 9:48

I remember they had a few things that they would like a handkerchief or a little miniature flag or some kind of a keepsake, And they were trying to get a little money from us. And there were some guys who were really mean. They just grabbed their whole table and took the stuff and just walked off with it, you know, and dared the Japanese to show any resistance. So there was both kinds of action. I think some of the marines were really too brutal. But I remember walking into one of the. It wasn't a shop, They just had tables with chairs outside and they had a few trinkets of things they were trying to sell.

Speaker 1: 10:37

Yeah, just trying to recover, like the rest of the world.

Speaker 2: 10:39

Yeah, and it was so sad. You know to see that How much time did you spend there, Wayne?

Speaker 2: 10:47

Well, i was aboard ship most of the time, so when I would go on shore leave occasionally, but we were in Tokyo Harbor for quite a while. Yokohama was the naval base there in Tokyo Harbor. There was two or three cities there, and Yokohama was the Japanese naval base, so we were stationed there in the bay, so that we had control. You know of the situation. Yeah, you know, tokyo Bay is a great big bay. It has a fairly narrow entrance to it, but then it widens out and so it's a big, big port city. One of the things I remember the most, though, is the vision of Fujiyama, the mountain, sacred mountain in Japan, and one of our I think our second trip.

Speaker 2: 11:40

We had been assigned to go down to the islands I think it was truck which had We had bypassed and there were prisoners of war on many islands, so our assignment after the war was to go to these islands, and our ship was for carrying equipment. So it was a perfect transport ship. We carried. Normally we would carry artillery and tanks and trucks, but when we were after the war, we were assigned to go to these different islands pick up Japanese prisoners. We had 699 Japanese prisoners on one of our assignments, and we brought them back to Tokyo. How far of a journey was that? Oh, several days, maybe 10 days.

Speaker 2: 12:27

Now, was there any cover, or were they just out in the open? No, no, they Well LST. Most of the time it's in the open. Lst is. I should have a picture, but it's a ship that is 300 feet long. The bridge and the wheelhouse is in the back and underneath. That are where the cruise quarters are, but the front of that, two-thirds of it, is an open, empty deck, underneath the top deck.

Speaker 2: 12:59

So, and they had cables, and Well, i forget what you call them. Where you'd put a cable, you'd tie a. Let's say they were carrying a jeep or a tank. They would hook that up and then they would put it down in an anchor or a hole you know in the deck and tighten it. What do you call that? Tie down? Yeah, and so that was what tied down those equipment on the top deck. And the same thing was true on the lower deck, because when they would go ashore in their invasion, the bow doors would open up. They would get as far as they could on the sands. They had to go to a sandy beach. They had a big trap door that dropped down from inside And then that was on the beach. So then they could drive the. It was amazing engineering. They could drive the tanks or the trucks or the mobilized artillery out on the sands, out on the beach.

Speaker 2: 13:59

That's how they used for invasion And Now you're hauling people, yeah, and later on we were assigned them to go to all the islands that were occupied by Japanese military and take them back to Japan.

Speaker 1: 14:17

So Wow, Okay Now just understanding a little bit of history and how the Japanese react to this. But they were. That had to be a little sketchy at times.

Speaker 2: 14:29

Yes, It was It was. They didn't show any hostility or anything. They were defeated. You know, once they're defeated they're sort of submissive, that's kind of their nature. I guess It isn't like maybe the Germans are ready to fight again, right Right, but we had 600.

Speaker 2: 14:52

The most we made two or three transports from the island to Japan And I remember the one that had the most they said 699 Japanese prisoners aboard And they were just absolutely quiet. I remember how we fed them our kitchen mess. They had these great big steel kettles, you know, for our normal food for the crew, because we had 60 people on the crew And when the Japanese were taken on board they brought in some. I call them garbage cans. They would cook the rice in these big kettles in the mess in the kitchen, transfer it to these big garbage cans When I say big, you know, like our regular garbage cans They were this high, this big, around full of rice.

Speaker 2: 15:48

They'd carry those out on the side of the kitchen And then the Japanese would line up with a bowl And they'd get a bowl of the big bowl of rice. That was done twice a day, because in the morning, noon and night the crew had to eat. So they served the Japanese prisoners, like at 9 o'clock and at 4 o'clock, and I remember seeing them lined up along the railing and being served a bowl of rice twice a day.

Speaker 1: 16:20

Just rice. Wow, well, that's probably more than they'd had to eat in a while. Oh sure, yeah, understanding the accounts, Yeah.

Speaker 2: 16:28

How And when we approached Tokyo Bay. I guess this is what I was leading up to. It was a cloudy morning, but we were navigating close to the entrance to the bay. All of a sudden the clouds lifted, because it was probably mid-morning. There in the distance was Mount Fujiyama. It was just like a magic picture. The Japanese knew we were getting close home anyway. They were all on the deck expecting to see their homeland. But then, when the fog lifted and there was Mount Fujiyama against the horizon, I never heard such a roar from prisoners. Yeah, I bet they were excited. They were like fans of the football game here. They were just jumping and yelling and happy to see their homeland.

Speaker 1: 17:22

Yeah, well, I can imagine some trepidation being defeated, getting on a boat and going. are we really going home, Just getting a one-way trip out to the deep end of the pool?

Speaker 2: 17:33

Yeah, that's one of my memories of taking them home.

Speaker 1: 17:37

How long were you over there for?

Speaker 2: 17:39

I was overseas about a year and a half. I spent just boot camp in San Diego for 10 weeks and then they sent me to overseas right away. I went to Pearl Harbor just for a transition and then from there to the Philippines in Manila Bay at a Navy station called Cavite just inside the bay, and they had a big Navy base there And that's where I was assigned to my LST.

Speaker 1: 18:09

This was a question that I asked my grandfather. I had a grandfather that was a Marine and a grandfather that was in the Army in Battle of the Bulge, and I asked them how often they think about it. I'm going to ask you the same question How often do you think about that?

Speaker 2: 18:29

I think about it a lot, particularly the last few years. I think about it a lot.

Speaker 1: 18:35

As you've gotten older, you think about it more. Why do you think that is?

Speaker 2: 18:40

I never thought I'd ask that. It just occurs to me, It just comes to me and it's just an old memory that seems to be pretty vivid in my mind, And maybe because of my age. I think about what happened in my young life, my older years ago, And I felt that I had a good service in the Navy. The reason is I always had. That's why I joined the Navy. Maybe I mentioned it already. I wanted to bed, to sleep in at night and I wanted food to eat when it was time to eat.

Speaker 1: 19:15

That's a solid reason, I think.

Speaker 2: 19:18

And growing up here in Montana during the early part of the war we saw movie-tone news on the weekly show. We get to go to the movie and they always had a newsreel about what was happening And it really impressed me about these poor Marines and Army that were fighting through those jungles in the islands And I couldn't see myself doing that. So I figured if I was going to serve in the service I wanted to be aboard a ship where I had a bunk to sleep in and a place to eat most of the time. And if we got into a battle and we got sunk, okay, that was part of the war, but at least in the Navy I had a place to, you know, crawl into bed. Pretty selfish thinking.

Speaker 1: 20:07

I think by that time, probably pretty standard thinking. You know, as I was telling you before, we started recording my sons in the Navy And so we get to have these conversations with enlisted people And listen. They're thinking the same things. Now You know, how can I eat food that's really cooked and not hard, And how can I sleep somewhere where I can actually sleep all night to this day, or common questions.

Speaker 2: 20:33

Now you grew up in Montana Where at I was born in North of Chinook on a family homestead near Canada. We were up there about 10 years And then my father moved to Billings. My family moved to Billings in 31. It was kind of interesting. My dad had a homestead up there and it was really survival living.

Speaker 2: 20:56

I felt bad for my mother, not when I was there, but all these years later. She took care of four boys on this homestead in the bitter winter of Montana up by Canada. My dad was into politics. He was elected as a representative and senator from Blaine County. So in the wintertime when the legislature was in session as it is now, he would go to Helena for two or three months And my mother had to stay home on the farm and figure out how to make a living and take care of four boys. I think we had a hired man to this. Maybe do some milk the cow. We had a cow that had to be milked twice a day And my mom had to figure out how to take care of four boys on the homestead.

Speaker 1: 21:47

You got put to work a lot, I'm guessing.

Speaker 2: 21:49

Yeah, we helped, we learned to help, yeah, yeah. Well, i was just a little. I was four years old. We moved to Billings in 31, wasn't it? I was four when we came here, so just three or four years.

Speaker 1: 22:02

Yeah, you were small still.

Speaker 2: 22:04

But I can still remember helping carry pails of water, running errands for my mom made an out of this little house we had, yeah, and my dad was in the legislature. I often think she said the hardest thing for her was cleaning the milk separator twice a day, somebody. I guess we had a hired man when dad was gone to milk the cow. I don't remember that. But you know it had to be put in the separator, separate the cream from the milk, right on the porch, yeah, right on the back porch. And then those big pans they used had to be steam cleaned because the milk would sour and get bad right away. So you know, just little things like that make you think how hard it was to survive on those homesteads.

Speaker 1: 22:55

Yeah, yeah, we share early memories that way with my grandmother. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:00

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:02

Before we leave your service time having you know, i was not in a time in my life where my service was necessary, so I got to be the beneficiary of all the hard work you guys did, sure, and I try and show appreciation as much as I can, well, yeah, But a question that I often that I really like to ask is what was your takeaway At home? what did you learn in that experience that you kind of carried with you for the rest of your life?

Speaker 2: 23:37

Well, i have to think a little bit about that, but it was a duty of all young men to serve. I felt it was just a natural thing for us to be in the service and to help protect our country. So I don't think it was anything unusual, so many of my friends had done the same thing. So I just feel it was a good part of my life and I learned a lot and I was proud of my time in the Navy, do you think?

Speaker 1: 24:07

it influenced. your just kind of can do, get things done, all the things that it takes to get through school and run a business, yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:17

I think some of it had to do with determination and having a goal and just sticking with it to get it done. Yeah, i think that's part of it. But I was raised in a family that was kind of expected too, so I didn't feel it was an unusual demand or unusual requirement. My folks always expected us to be busy, keep part-time jobs. We were kids, were always working part-time as we grew up. We grew up during the Depression and those were tough times for everybody. Yeah, so I just it was kind of maybe a preparation too.

Speaker 2: 24:59

You know, growing up in the Depression era when everything was so valuable Yeah, even little things I remember my mom just saving the littlest things. We'd save paper sacks, we would save tin foil that came on gun wrappers. Do you remember that? Yeah, and I remember we would. If we had gun, we would peel off that little aluminum foil on it and start a little ball And before long we have a ball as big as the cup. And then we turned it into the war. What'd they call it? Every community had a civil defense or kind of a board that represented military or looked after military labor and the draft. My dad was on the draft board in Hardin, bighorn County.

Speaker 1: 25:54

So I don't know where that leads me but Listen, one of the things that I really enjoy about talking to my own father, who is 10 years younger than you. He is how do I put this? delicately? He really doesn't care what people think much anymore. You know he has his opinions And so we're in a time right now. You know we've gone through a pretty tough year with COVID and I found myself often thinking of the stories from my grandfather and going, man, we're trying to treat this like. This was really a hard, tough thing to slog through And you know, i think if you were affected, it really was. What are your feelings on this? as you compare it to an event like World War II, you compare what? We compare the struggle that we have right now with the COVID pandemic that's going on, and Well, i think there's no comparison.

Speaker 2: 26:51

Yeah, i think the sacrifice of everybody had affected everybody. Yeah, and wherever you were, whether you were in, you know, boseman or New Orleans, or the war, was all inclusive And we were all felt it was a national catastrophe or national duty, national sacrifice to get through it. So I guess, poignantly, so there, oh, go ahead. I was just going to say I think we accepted it as a role of patriotism And we were willing to do it. There weren't very many, there were always a few, what do they call it? people who resisted, you know, yes, and there's always people of that nature And you understand that. But most of us just accepted it as what we had to do to protect our country. It was a major disaster at Pearl Harbor. Yes, it really shook the whole country how devastating that was and how bad the war could be and how much Japan damage could do. We were just lucky we were far enough away, otherwise they would have bombed Los Angeles.

Speaker 1: 27:59

Yes, yeah, and you know a lot of stories that that was in the works. Yeah, something of that nature. Yeah, let's shift on to going to university Montana State College, right, and the architectural program which really ended up being your career with your partner for many years. Yeah, fifty years. That alone is amazing. I've had some business partners and not one of them did. I think 50 years would have been a good idea. Well, that's like a marriage right.

Speaker 2: 28:35

That's right. But you know, we had just the right combination, i guess, of nature and character. We got along so well. I met him in college. We were classmates. He was two years ahead of me at Boseman But then I came to after I graduated. I came to Belling's and he had a one man office. He got an early start. He wanted to have his own business And I worked for another architect for three years here, which is a requirement for registration, kind of an apprenticeship. Yeah, i took my test. I took a state exam like most professional degrees, so I passed my test and I had worked for him before I passed my test And I'd worked with him side by side as a classmate at Boseman for a couple of projects.

Speaker 2: 29:31

At that time the seniors would have to have a thesis. A thesis is a building that they would choose to design and then put it on paper, like I chose when I graduated, and it's like a six month thesis. The first two or three, let's say the first two months. You write a program And my program was to design a shopping center in Belling's, and Belling's in those days ended at the 8th Street West. I had a connection in Belling's, i would come to Belling's and so I thought you know, a thesis for me would be to do a shopping center And shopping centers were just kind of becoming popular around the country after the war. So the professors approved me doing a shopping center in Belling's And I came to Belling's and met with the Chamber of Commerce I remember the Chamber of President and had some interviews And I'll be darned if I didn't pick where West Park Plaza is now. At that time there was just a big pool of water. It was a swamp.

Speaker 1: 30:42

I've heard stories like this.

Speaker 2: 30:43

Yeah, well, belling's ended at kind of 5th. There was some a lot of homes up to 8th Street, but 8th Street was the end of the town. Everything else was agriculture. But I remember driving in Grand Avenue was a gravel street But there were a few houses scattered there farmhouses. As we got out to where West Park Plaza is it was all open space But it was a swamp. But anyway, i chose that as my location for my thesis at college and the do a shopping center there. Is that a coincidence?

Speaker 1: 31:19

That is a coincidence. Did they take any nods from your work when they finally built the West Park Plaza Just a location, let's circle back around to coming out of the war And there had to be a great influx of students coming in on the GI Bill, right, that's right, yeah. And so the early days. The architectural program in Bozeman is pretty storied. Now It's been around for a long time. It's a well-respected school.

Speaker 2: 31:55

What was it like then. It was really really the most difficult time in my education because in those days architecture was a minor what's it say? a minor course? That's not the word. But I'm in the engineering department, i see, under civil engineering, and they didn't even have a degree. They might have had a degree in architectural engineering, but not in the professional sense that they have now. And so we were the guinea pigs of a new program and it was under the direction of a talented young architect from Seattle by the name of Keith Colb And he was a taskmaster and a hard-driving teacher. But because it was under the engineering program it was subjected to their credential requirements, credit requirements. But up on the third floor of Robert's Hall was the School of Architecture And it had been established there before. It wasn't a new school, not because of the war 120 students enrolled in architecture, wow, and it was because of the GI Bill and a lot of young men thought that would be a good field, i guess.

Speaker 2: 33:22

But the attrition rate turned out to be that there were 120 resistance in architecture when I was a freshman, and that was certainly basic drawing. It wasn't really architecture drafting and learning how to draw cubes or to you know the basics of drafting. In the second year, do I say there were 120? Second year there were 60 after the dropout rate, and that dropout rate continued until the time when I was a junior. And when I was a junior there were 20 students left out of 120. That started And part of it was because it was such a what should I say demanding teachers. They didn't want to have to deal with 120 students. I won't say it was personal, but you know they knew that that was just too many students in the school. So by the time I was a junior I think there were less than 20 who were dedicated to that course And when I graduated there were only about 12 students that graduated after those years.

Speaker 1: 34:31

My understanding is, the attrition rate is not that different. now There's a lot of rigor in the program.

Speaker 2: 34:39

And most people just can't, they're just not cut for it. They look at it as kind of a romantic field, but they don't realize how tough and demanding it is.

Speaker 1: 34:49

Yeah, yeah, you read Atlas Shrugged, or not Atlas Shrugged? what was the other end, rand, where they talk about architecture And the Fountainhead, the Fountainhead. yes, thank you. You read the Fountainhead and you're off to college and going. wow, this is a little more than just making pretty designs.

Speaker 2: 35:07

There was 120 started and I was 12, 10 or 12. who was a graduate?

Speaker 1: 35:13

Yeah, wow. And you graduated in what year? 1950. So did you come right? you came right to Billings.

Speaker 2: 35:20

When I graduated I did have a job here for a little while, but when I graduated the Korean War broke out in the spring of 1950. And all of a sudden the entire country was on a wartime footing.

Speaker 1: 35:35

Again.

Speaker 2: 35:36

Again, i had a job with an architect by the name of Chandler Kohagen. He was an old-time architect here. It really wasn't much of a job, but he was in architecture. He had a one-man office and it's kind of interesting. This was 1950, he had a school project up in Sydney, way up, 300 miles from Billings. Well, all of us students were anxious to get a job and my professor said well, mr Kohagen and Billings is looking for an architect or a student And if you go to Billings, the interview with him, you might have a chance. Well, that turned out, he had a school job under construction in Sydney, 300 miles away from Billings, but it was a job And he offered to pay me $250 a month if I would go up there and sit on that job as an inspector. Well, here I was a fresh student out of college. I didn't know a damn thing about construction except what I had learned. And he sent me up there and I lived in Sydney for three months while those schools were being built.

Speaker 1: 36:47

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:48

And on weekends I'd do anything to get back to Billings.

Speaker 1: 36:51

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:52

And I can remember hitchhiking every Friday night on trying to get a ride back, and that's a six hour trip, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:01

How were you accepted by the old construction workers on the project? Were they good, did they?

Speaker 2: 37:07

teach you, yeah, they took me right into their track and showed me a lot of things. They were great.

Speaker 1: 37:15

Yeah, so it was a good learning experience It was a good place to be.

Speaker 2: 37:18

It was just too damn isolated, yeah, and my folks were embozzement. My girlfriend at that time was in Billings And here I was spending the summer out in Sydney.

Speaker 1: 37:33

Not much more prospects than mosquitoes and wind? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:37

But then the Korean War broke out And when I came home in August we had plans to be married. So my wife, girlfriend, we got married and we lived here in Billings and I had a part-time job. I was at Penny's store for Christmas holiday. I had grown up in Hardin and sold clothes from a little high school job in Hardin So I knew the clothing business. So I got a job at Penny's for six weeks during the Christmas holiday, But then I was out of work. But during that time the Korean War broke out and Lockheed Aircraft was looking for draftsmen and people to work in their America. So my brother who lived in LA, got me a job interview with Lockheed Aircraft And so I had a job and right after Christmas my wife at that time I drove to California. We went to work for Lockheed Aircraft in January 1st, probably January 2nd, Yeah, Yeah, In 1950. Yeah, 51, 50.

Speaker 2: 38:50

So that was in LA or Orange County. Well, it's one of those sub. Lockheed was in Burbank. We lived in Glendale. We had an apartment there, so I lived about a seven-mile drive that I commuted with friends. We had a carpool.

Speaker 1: 39:06

Had to be an exciting time to be in LA.

Speaker 2: 39:08

It was. For me it was like a dream, because LA was kind of the should I say the heartbeat of modern architecture.

Speaker 1: 39:17

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:18

A lot of new ideas, a lot of after the war, a lot of new construction going on. It was a great time. For me It was kind of like a secondary, your master's study Yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:29

How did that influence what you brought back to Billings?

Speaker 2: 39:33

Oh, everything, Yeah, Everything, Yeah. What I studied in architecture gave me a basic in the profession, but LA was, as I said was, the leader of modern architecture during that after the war and building was recovering after the war and the depression. So there was lots of construction going on and lots of new high concepts, lots of new structures, lots of new use of glass. They're using glass for large spaces. Yeah, it really.

Speaker 1: 40:05

It was like going to a master's study in the States, you know, yeah, now were there a lot of other young men like you, or men, probably not too many women at that time, right? No?

Speaker 2: 40:17

There weren't any women in the field at that time.

Speaker 2: 40:20

But I worked at Lockheed but every weekend my wife and I would drive out and I would do studies on all the new buildings that were being built. So it was kind of like a new outdoor class in architecture. And I did go to night school at USC. I didn't want to sign up for a class, a credit class, because it was a five credit class. I knew I couldn't handle that and still work full time. But I signed up for an audit. They allowed us to audit the same class. That was good for me because I could go. It was a night class. I could go two nights a week, sit in on the class. I wasn't graded or anything, but they allowed me to sit in on the class And so I got a good introduction to Southern California architecture for that one quarter.

Speaker 1: 41:14

How long were you down in LA?

Speaker 2: 41:16

About a year and a half And I worked for Lockheed during that time. But every weekend, every time off I had, I'd go look at buildings. Yeah, It was kind of like a What were some of your favorites? Well, there were a lot of architects doing good work down there. There was more Frank Lloyd Wright type students or conditions. So there were two or three Frank Lloyd Wright students who were prior students and they had done some work. So I always searching out those buildings. But I did search out a lot of new modern buildings too. Some of the modern architects were creating houses and offices out of almost all glass. They would throw up a steel structure with columns and fill in the perimeter with glass. It was kind of a new, really a new expansion of how to use materials, that sort of thing. So every week even though I was working every weekend we went out and looked at architectural structures, historic buildings, like Frank Lloyd Wright had in several historic buildings down there, And the new architects were doing good work.

Speaker 1: 42:35

And he was still a big, big influence at that time.

Speaker 2: 42:37

Oh yeah, yeah, he sure was Yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:40

As a matter of fact, as I sit here in your home and I look around, i see some similarities. Yeah, yeah, so obviously had an impact, right? So after the year and a half did you come back to buildings? Is that when you came?

Speaker 2: 42:53

Yeah, i had a. I was wanted to be in architecture but because of the Korean War then nobody was hiring young architects So the architects were starving. But it was interesting CTA, cushing and Terrell at that time had a couple of my classmates working with them. They had gotten jobs out of college And so they were looking for help. Thesemy two friends knew I was in California. I got a telegram for my place and asked if I was interested in coming back to buildings. They offered me a job And of course I was pulling at the reins to get a job. I couldn't get one there, so I took the job in buildings And that's what brought me back home. So I worked for CTA for three years, wow.

Speaker 2: 43:41

And then at that time I met my partner. Well, i knew my partner from college, but he had a one-band office And after I'd been with CTA for three or four years I had gotten a re-friendship with Vernon Drake And he needed help. So I decided to join his firm or his office. And then when I took my examination a year later, he said well, once you pass yourit's a state exam, once you pass the exam, he said we'll be partners. And that's how it turned out. I worked with him for about a year and took my exam and passed it, and so then we formed a partnership. We're together, 50 years Wow.

Speaker 1: 44:27

That's incredible to me. That is incredible to me. People, you know, marriages that last 50 years are a miracle in themselves. Business partnerships that last 50 years.

Speaker 2: 44:41

I can remember only one slight argument. It wasn't an argument, it was just a bad feeling. We were interviewing for a school job in Glendive. When you interview you talk to the school board and try to sell your experience and services. And I made an innocent correction of what Vernon said, or maybe an amplification. And the only time I can ever remember a little disagreement is that after the meeting Vernon kind of took issue with me and he said you shouldn't have interrupted me or something. He took it as a no negative. I said I was just trying to clarify it. It wasn't like we were arguing, it was just another comment But he took it as a correction and he felt bad And I felt bad that he took the exception to that. But that was the only time we ever had a little disagreement.

Speaker 1: 45:41

So take us back to those early days when you first started doing architecture and buildings. What was the atmosphere? Was it an open market? There had to be some struggle.

Speaker 2: 45:55

Well, not only my partner and I, but there were other young graduates that come to buildings, and so they too were trying to get a foothold. Ray Nordquist was one. He was a classmate of mine, and Lance Sundell, who was a classmate of mine, and they formed a partnership, nordquist and Sundell, i guess maybe soon after the break, you know, 1950 or 51. No, maybe 55. And then I came, i worked with Vernon and he during my apprenticeship, and he said you have to pass your test, but when you pass your state exam, well, i'd like to have a partnership with you. So that did happen, and one of the interesting commissions we got was West High School, the notorious gymnasium Yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:57

But West High School. The school board felt in their judgment it was too big a job for just two of us. So there's another firm called Nordquist and Sundell. Do you remember that? So in their judgment, they hired Nordquist and Sundell and Drake and Gustafson, which they felt would be a stronger architectural team to do West High. So she'd go out there and look at the brass plaque on the wall that says Nordquist and Sundell, drake and Gustafson.

Speaker 1: 47:34

How did you guys work? You got the school build.

Speaker 2: 47:37

Yeah, you did all together. Yeah, we did. We put together. We each had separate offices but we needed more manpower. So we rented space in the SNL building. That's that building next. What do you call it, pam? What's next? It's just south of the parking garage on 29th. Oh, ok, you know, there's a two-story building there. That's what's called the SNL building, and when I came to Billings to parking, that was all gravel. It hadn't been built on, you know, for years. But anyway, we got together and we rented some offices up there. We combined our staff. Each of us had two or three staff members And so we kind of put our staff together. We took over rooms up there. They weren't very much of a studio, they were just rooms that were connected by doors. So we set up our drafting equipment up there, hired a couple of ladies to type right all the specifications, and so we produced all the drawings and the specifications for that up there for West High. How long was that project? Well, quite a while. I took just several months to get the drawings done and then we had to put it out for bid.

Speaker 2: 49:00

One of the controversies I remember is that we were, as a team, trying to discuss what sort of construction to base the design on. One could be structural steel, you know, with a skeleton. The other one was what's there now is port concrete. Adam Hitz was a contractor here but also a concrete maker. He was called Hitz Construction or Hitz Concrete, later Quality Concrete. We met with Base Plug Construction, george LaRue. George LaRue always was ugly towards me after this. He was representing steel construction like the one that's going up down there. Adam Hitz was representing concrete construction And as we designed the building we interviewed both Base Plug, george LaRue and Adam Hitz And we chose to make the design that would be concrete, which way it is down, and George LaRue took exception to that.

Speaker 1: 50:08

What influenced that decision? What influenced that decision? Why did you go with concrete instead of steel?

Speaker 2: 50:15

You know that's a good thing. After all these years It's hard for me to, i think, maybe because of the gymnasium, maybe we designed the building and the gymnasium was such an unusual structure. We could have done it in steel, but for some reason we just envisioned a building that was built like an arena And it was a natural design with those tent sides because they could be built with opposing forces and very stable. And when we worked out the design, they built forms, tacked them up, put forms in place. Can you imagine all those big forms enclosed in concrete, i mean enclosed in plywood. But we put them up so they were opposing forces, so they were stable. And then the contractor dropped down the forms, moved them, tacked them up again to the next two, dropped them down and moved them, dropped them up. So it was a pretty ingenuity to reuse the forms.

Speaker 1: 51:25

So you basically tear poured the entire structure. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 51:31

Wow, what they did, what actually. The forms were built and they poured the concrete up to where the bottom of the arch is and where the curb is Maybe 10 feet. That was more than that, pretty high anyway. And then, after the base were constructed and hardened, then they put the extensions up and put them up. So they opposed each other. Yeah, it was quite a question.

Speaker 1: 51:59

Let's talk about the design of that, because the first time I went into that building was years, years later, when my own kids were in sports. I'd seen it from the outside but I'd never been in and I just thought this is stunning. Back when you were designing that, i mean, gymnasiums were these big square boxes that you just sat a lot of people in.

Speaker 2: 52:18

Yeah, Pretty common Yeah.

Speaker 1: 52:20

Couple questions on that. What inspired the design? How did you talk the school district into doing it?

Speaker 2: 52:29

Well, we were young architects. There were four of us put together a little team and the school board hired us. I think they were looking for something new and different. There were older architects in town who were maybe many years experienced, but as maybe divine intervention, the school board hired us and they thought it was such a big job, we'd be better if we'd team up. And so we did. We were college classmates and we knew each other well And so we worked on the needs of the school we call programming now where you'd meet with school board or principals and that's sort of officials that were going to be in the school.

Speaker 2: 53:22

They had already hired a fellow by the name of Wally West. Anyway, they had already hired a principal for the school and they were organizing a second high school And so he was part of the planning. As young architects, we wanted to do something unique, not just build another senior high school, and we started in sketching and led to building models. We built cardboard models and they were really quite accurate, but they were not colorful. They were built out of white cardboard or styrofoam, but so we built a model of the gym, of the rest of the school, and I think the school board and members were quite impressed with an idea of having something other than just a box. So we proceeded with that idea and, as I mentioned, we met with local contractors to see how practical it was, particularly the gym, and so we made the decision to go ahead and the school board liked the idea, so we were able to sell it to them.

Speaker 1: 54:40

You know, what I find fascinating about the story is not only did you create a gym, you created a space that became a popular place for smaller schools to come and have their tournaments. It really became an early civic type center and, just out of a great design, it impacted way beyond a gymnasium for a high school.

Speaker 2: 55:05

Yeah, it really was. It really was. Well, we were always looking for creative ideas, doing something fresh and something different. And even the rest of the building, which is all concrete I like the idea of columns being exposed, so all the columns are really concrete fins, you might say, that are projecting outside the building to give the building itself more character, shadow and different visual appearance in a normal brick building. But we did build a model of it. I was looking for that downstairs and I think my kids put those away. But we built a nice model which was probably almost as big as this table And we showed that to the board and showed them what the gym would be like. And the only requirements we had from the school board was the gym had to be big enough to seat the student body for class assemblies.

Speaker 1: 56:13

And which was? how big Were they projecting at that time?

Speaker 2: 56:15

They were projecting 2,000 students, but it was built in two or three phases And the first phase had 1,200 students And then we added to it later to I think they're close to 2,000 students, and so the gym was designed to seat 2,500 in bleachers. There was some way space in there because of the form, but it was still big enough and economical enough to build that worked out just fine And they're sitting at about that number now, if I remember right, beautiful, and that's how many years later?

Speaker 1: 56:56

1960. Yeah, 1960. So well, i can tell you for sure that's 70 years later or 60 years later, because I was born in 61. Beautiful building From a business standpoint, you get done with this. This was your first big project that you've done on your own with your partner, right, and you know, in all of these you stop and you take a deep breath and go, wow, we made it through that. What were the really important lessons you learned as a young architect through that project?

Speaker 2: 57:32

Well, we had done schools before. We were known as school architects. We had done schools around the state and also had done schools for district 2. We did poly drive and rim rock elementary. So we had done schools for. Even we did a four room classroom for TAF. Do you remember TAF school? Oh man.

Speaker 1: 57:57

Elementary school. Yeah, that was that hasn't been around for a while now.

Speaker 2: 58:01

No, We did. We did a four-room classroom addition. That passed and it was something like they have here at Broadwater.

Speaker 1: 58:10

You know that, yeah, one-story building on the property Here anyway, we had done some. What'd you learn? What'd you learn from that project that you took forward West High?

Speaker 2: 58:21

Yeah, well, i don't know, it was just routine design, but we did want to design something unique. We didn't. You know, as young architects, you're always looking for atrying to be a notable building. A building that would have It is that to have some identity, you know. So I think we just came up with that idea and convinced the school board we could do it, but then to have it being completed and occupied, like the buildings, because that, well, pride and reward I mean personal reward in seeing a building completed that's just started from paper. Yeah, you know, and that's the real difference. You know, you can draw stuff on paper, but if you don't take it to building materials, you've done nothing.

Speaker 1: 59:10

You know, i think as a citizen of buildings, one of the things that strikes me as we talk about the different schools that you had, your school design really became kind of a template, particularly for elementary schools around that. We see that even other architects were involved in. What I find really interesting about West High you talk about kind of the classic design of senior high and for that time period I mean it's a beautiful building to this day. I find the same timeless, classic look that was kind of identified in that modern architecture of the time that you see in that building And so much of that now around town, as you've seen, even some of your buildings they've had new facades put on them and they've been taken.

Speaker 1: 1:00:00

This one has not. This one is as classic of a design and classic of a public school building as anything like senior high, and that's my humble opinion. But I drive by the darn thing, you know, like the rest of buildings you know, a couple of times a week at least, and it still is a striking structure. Yeah, it is, it's a landmark building. It's a landmark building. That's got to bring some pride.

Speaker 2: 1:00:27

Absolutely it does. Yeah, it's just any. but finishing any building is the feeling of pride and reward, whether it's a nice house for somebody, which we've done a lot of houses for, or public buildings, like we're talking about. I think that's the amazing thing about architecture is you can see what your work is, your life work is. I was always amused by some architect who said yeah, an architect can only advise his client to plant vines if he's made a mistake. At least he was a doctor can bury your mistake.

Speaker 1: 1:01:07

Wow yes, that is true. That mistake is going to be there for everyone to see for a long, long time And, unfortunately, on the architectural landscape, there are a few of those out there, aren't there? Listen, that's only one of several notable structures that you've been responsible for in the city. Security Bank building.

Speaker 2: 1:01:31

Was it Western security? It's now Western security bank. It was done originally for security, federal savings, and all Isn't it the sheriff's department.

Speaker 1: 1:01:40

Now, yeah, that was the first one we did for security, federal savings.

Speaker 2: 1:01:46

And that was quite a landmark when it was finished.

Speaker 1: 1:01:49

Well, again, another multi-sided building, yeah, right, so you've done that. Once You figure yeah, let's do the whole thing this way. Yeah, right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:01:56

Yeah, and I have my clients to give me credit for that. When I designed that and put it on paper I showed the clients and Jack Ryan, who is a longtime good citizen here He was chairman of the savings and loan at that time. I showed him a couple of different forms. One was more of a square, typical form, and then I said but I've been playing around with her or studying in maybe a circular building there And because you have to have a drive in, and anyway, he was kind of struck and struck by that design. So he says why don't you do that further? give me more information on it? And so we went further and built a model of it. It was a beautiful model. It was about half the size of this table And it was really a striking design. Nothing like it anywhere in the area.

Speaker 2: 1:02:55

And he and the board were really encouraged and wanted to do that. So it was a step by step process. They just didn't come out of the nowhere Right. Like all buildings do, it takes a lot of you start with a piece of paper and start studying different options depending on the land and traffic and things of that nature. And so when I showed him the circular plan. They were really, really excited about it. So then I studied it further and we built a nice model of it And it was really striking design. So they approved it to go ahead.

Speaker 1: 1:03:33

That is an art you just don't see in architecture anymore. Not very little, yeah, very little model making. Yeah, very little conceptual on the computer. Right, that's right. Yeah, now, that was before the Gazette building. Yeah, yeah. And then you're back to a pretty standard structure.

Speaker 2: 1:03:53

It was. But the Gazette hired us, I think because they left a new look of the savings in Moen. Yeah, And that's what Strand Hillibald told me. He was publisher then And I remember then coming out to our office, which is a little building on Grand Avenue where Jeff Kyle and the insurance company is, And that little office was sort of a poor front for us but we were doing good work. And so Strand Hillibald and his assistant came out and made an appointment with us And we sat in our little conference room there and he said they decided they would like to have us design their new building. And so that's how that started, So that one building got us to the Gazette building. Of course we had done West High too, So that was about the same time, I think.

Speaker 1: 1:04:48

You had some momentum going, yeah, yeah, and some attention. Yeah, you know, i did take the time and go back and look at some old articles from the time And you're getting some press. You're getting a little press. at the time People were liking it. Yeah, you know, certainly before the tall buildings came in, it really anchored downtown. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, beautiful stuff. So what are some of your favorite designs and projects that you look back over your career and you think about, whether it be residential or commercial?

Speaker 2: 1:05:23

Well, i have quite a few residential Most of my house buildings I'm really pretty proud of. I have done several nice homes one for Don Allway Subjacents Yes, we did one for Seabrook Spates Yeah, brook Spates. You'll write up straight up here, mm-hmm, you know which one that is, i know the area. Well, you should go see it. You could drive by it. I would like that. It's right straight north of here. You take what's that 1000 oaks or what's one of those streets that goes up there.

Speaker 1: 1:05:56

Off a rim rock Off a rim Okay Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:05:59

Just go straight up. It's almost above where the studio theater is, Yep, And if you go straight up there there's really a nice house up there. It's kind of adapted to the rims because there was really a steep rim, rock outcropping or level spot there that we built this house And it's one of my favorites. It's kind of an unusual design because you drive up in front It takes the whole front yard Okay because of the elevation you have. It goes in front of the house and then left into the garage.

Speaker 2: 1:06:34

You get out of the garage and you're in the main floor lobby. But the main floor lobby is on the ground floor. The living spaces are all up on the second floor but it has an interesting staircase. You go up a wide set of steps. It's a wide entry. You go up a half a flight and it takes you to a flat spot outside where they've developed a patio. It's a big flat area surrounded by rocks. Then you turn and go up another half a flight of steps back. When you go back that way and you get up to the top, you come to the dining room, kind of the center of the house Kitchen, dining room, living and then But it's all glass. So once you arrive at the top landing, you're looking out at the whole valley And it's just kind of an unexpected view. When you get up there You know it's there, but just to be there and enter that way is kind of a different way to look at a house.

Speaker 1: 1:07:34

Yeah, that seems to be your theme, just a different way to look at things. Can you talk a little bit about that? when you come upon a piece of property or a project, step us through how your mind works and what you think might work in that space.

Speaker 2: 1:07:57

Well, i think it's two or three things at the same time. One is the lay of the land, depending on the views, that may or may not be there. Like this house doesn't have any views, but I've related it closely to the land and to the landscape So that the landscape really becomes part of the interior. But if you have views, then you begin to think about how the living spaces inside could be arranged so that take advantage of the view. And most houses we know that they will build. Somebody might like a floor plan and they'll put it on the rim, but it doesn't belong there. Yes, so it takes a matter of appreciation and experience to take advantage of the site, because that's the main thing.

Speaker 1: 1:08:53

Yeah, when you're working with a client and you're having these conversations, they've certainly had the wherewithal or the foresight to hire an architect, so they're thinking more about a living space or a working space than someone who's picking a blueprint out of a book. And we have acres and acres of subdivisions where that's the case And people lead wonderful lives there and raise wonderful families. That's not a knock. But you are deciding to take this to a different level when you hire an architect. Yeah, i wonder you know, because this is part artist, part service industry, part engineering. You know all of those elements come into what you're doing. Yeah, do you? is there? is there much convincing going on when you, when you finally sit down with someone and go this is where we're going?

Speaker 2: 1:09:51

Yeah, sometimes there is. There is. Sometimes clients will give you complete freedom, and I have to say that because I had a client many years ago who had a ranch down near Sheridan. He was a wealthy Florida man. We'd been recommended to him by somebody in Sheridan His name is Denious and wanted me to design a house for this ranch, which we did. Yeah, and I went down to the site with him and we designed this beautiful house. I went down to Florida to show his family, or his wife. He invited me down there for a few days after he and I had agreed on the plan And I'll never forget I rolled out the plan and his wife was sitting there and he was sitting there and his wife leaned over and was using her finger to point at something And he immediately said don't point at anything, we're not changing anything. Wow, it was just that clear And it was built that way. It was really built that way.

Speaker 1: 1:11:01

I'm not sure that would go with my wife, but Anyway, and he continued to live in Florida.

Speaker 2: 1:11:09

I made two or three trips down there but we designed the house. I got a lot of credit to Dell. It's a Frank Lloyd Wright house Yeah, the most, i guess one of the most faithful interpretations of his work And I was just down there a year ago and took some pictures of it. Anyway, it was just. That was one of the most amazing projects I ever did for a family. But they really didn't live in there a lot, they had other homes.

Speaker 2: 1:11:44

But I was recommended to him and he built this beautiful home And you go down there today and it's just as pristine as it was when it was built. He doesn't live. Well, i don't even know if he's alive anymore because all the years have gone by. But I've been down there several times over the last two or three years and I've talked to the ranch foreman And he knew who I was and he said, well, let's go get a key and we'll go on and walk through it. Yeah, And so I was able to relive those And it's a beautiful house, beautiful house. Nobody lives in it.

Speaker 1: 1:12:25

Oh, that's sad. It's kind of like a car that nobody drives. That's really sad.

Speaker 2: 1:12:32

Let me see, we got an idea here.

Speaker 1: 1:12:34

So you finish the ranch house and at that time you are working on your own home. Sure That we're sitting in right now. That is absolutely beautiful. It has a real. It's like you're sitting in the forest here in the middle of Billings.

Speaker 2: 1:12:51

We're lucky to have a beautiful site here. Home site.

Speaker 1: 1:12:54

Yeah, yeah, it really is beautiful How much of that the ranch house influenced what you did here.

Speaker 2: 1:13:04

Well, i think they just reflect my philosophy on design. I've done other buildings, not too much different from this. but depending on the nature of the client, the type of client and what their needs are, i try to interpret the floor plan first and then see how I can wrap it up into a wonderful outside envelope, so to speak. So it kind of starts with a site and then where's the house of floor plan fit, the needs of the house, needs of the family and the house that fit on the property, and then you kind of design all it. all kind of flows in a circle. Yes, so design is part of the floor plan. I mean, the exterior represents part of the floor plan, so it's just all interconnected.

Speaker 1: 1:13:57

So you really are going from the edges of the property in.

Speaker 2: 1:14:00

Yeah, that's right Beautiful.

Speaker 1: 1:14:04

Well you've been doing you. How many 50 years you had your practice right? How long have you been retired now?

Speaker 2: 1:14:11

I retired technically in I think it was all four Yes, I think so, about 15 years 15 years And okay, so technically.

Speaker 1: 1:14:22

when did you actually retire? I know this story.

Speaker 2: 1:14:27

Well, I was doing work for private clients up until four or five years ago.

Speaker 1: 1:14:32

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:14:32

When my vision changed. I'm almost I'm legally blind, Yeah, And I had to stop when I couldn't see what I was drawing. Yeah, Yeah, But I did a job for Dan Scott out at his out at his property at Pompeys Pillar is that where it was?

Speaker 1: 1:14:52

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:14:53

And then I did a job for a friend of mine from Livingston who was worked for Stillwater Mining Company. I did he'd build a nice house up south of Livingston. So until I couldn't see the draw anymore, i was always doing something.

Speaker 1: 1:15:11

Yeah, so you look back over this career now and you were one of several really good architectural firms in this area. Yes, no, you remember Harrison Fagg. Yeah, you remember the CTA people worked for them. Yeah, johnson, graham and associates all these, all these people that have a footprint on on our landscape here in Billings. Tell me, what do you think about this now, as a man of 94 and you literally can sit on the other side of this journey and look back on it What do you reflect?

Speaker 2: 1:15:51

on. I just think it's incredible, Incredible, because I remember in college our professor, who was talented and demanding professor, who was practiced in Seattle for many years. After teaching at Boseman he moved to Seattle and was a unforgettable instructor. Professor made such an impact on the on the lives of his students some of, not only myself but some others that I could name, who were kind of protegees in a way, but not in the way of of imitating what he would do, but he taught us to be original. He said you do what's what you feel like. You're not copying somebody else. The important thing is to be creative and original as best as you can, And so what I reflect back on that is that I'm amazed at in Montana, in a rural, rural agricultural state, that my partner and I were so fortunate to develop a practice that lasted for 50 years and we never were without work. Yeah, Never were without work.

Speaker 1: 1:17:03

Let's give a nod to your partner who has passed. Yeah, and clearly a friend and a partner for a long time. Yeah, when you look back over the lessons in your life from him, what stands out?

Speaker 2: 1:17:16

Well, one time I paid tribute to him as as an example of having the three eyes intelligence, idealism and integrity. And I was fortunate to have him as a partner because we reinforced each other as responsible people, you know, accountable citizens. If we were hired by a client, we were determined to do the best for them, not for us. At the same time, architecture is a service, you know, just drafting. Architecture is a profession, which is what we provide for for our clients, and it's a business. You have to make a living out of it. So we were. We were motivated by those three, those three conditions, and I just think we had a combination together that was just unique.

Speaker 2: 1:18:13

And I remember one nice compliment I got from a school board member at Cody. They were having trouble getting some school buildings built, like a bond issue, and we went down and were interviewed and were hired to be the school board architect, and one of the school board members, who was a woman, complimented me. She said you know, until you came and presented your services, we were, we were, we were at each other's. So it's on the board. They could decide what to do, but by selling our services in a way that was responsible to the community and to the board. They hired us And we did some really nice school work down there for them. That are, i think are, landmark buildings right now. So that's what's so rewarding about this.

Speaker 1: 1:19:05

Well said, yeah, what impact do you think you've left?

Speaker 2: 1:19:09

Well, i haven't really thought about that very much. I just look at the nice buildings we've done. I go over to Rocky and we've done several buildings at Rocky And they put up a plaque for me. They put that plaque. Say, vanilla, put up a nice bronze plaque on the ground. He was honoring you and your love for Rocky and all all that you were to Rocky And you were an architect and friend. I think there were three words listed. That's a plaque they put up over there, dwayne Gustafson, for decades of service to Rocky Mountain College I think that was close to it And that plaque's on the ground in front of one of the buildings over there. Now, to me that's one of the most best tributes I could ever imagine. You know being done by anybody. I just take quiet pride in that. What is it?

Speaker 1: 1:20:12

Well, mr Gustafson, we're at our 90 minutes And I again thank you so much for taking the time to share. I know it's a brief part of the story And for the listeners out there I'm sorry about that, but this is the time that we have. It's been an honor to sit down and talk with you and watch and know your work over my lifetime here in this community And I can't tell you for myself and our community thank you enough for the work and the footprint and the impact that you've had on our community.

Speaker 2: 1:20:48

Well, thank you, but I feel it's been my privilege to receive these, receive these commissions and to be able to provide, you know, what I can to make these buildings a important part of our community.

Speaker 1: 1:21:02

Yeah, indeed, indeed, thank you. And for those of you out there, get out, admire some of the architecture in our wonderful community and know that there are people walking around you every day that are very talented, very driven, have great integrity and are just trying to make our community a better place for all of us. And to catch more episodes of Front Porch Perspective, go to frontporchperspectiveco and we'll see you next week on the porch.